It’s pretty bullshit, yeah. The North is… not exactly spectacular re gender roles and women’s rights. There is some good, mind you. The Mormont ladies are warrior women, but they pretty much have to be, due to their harsh climate and fear of raids from the ironborn. Possibly some of the mountain clans and far north houses (e.g. Umber) may raise their women similar to wildling spearwives, due to the fact they’re basically the same ethnicity and culture as the wildlings, and also to defend themselves from being kidnapped by wildling men. And we know that the Starks’ great-grandmother, Arya Flint of the mountain clans, is the reason why Bran was so good at climbing per Old Nan.
But in general? No, it’s not progressive at all. House Stark has never had a ruling Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North in all its 8000 years of existence. And there’s two examples we know for certain where that was deliberately removed as a possibility:
- the possibly legendary Brandon Stark “the Daughterless”, whose only child, the “Blue Rose of Winterfell”, was kidnapped by the wildling Bael the Bard (but they supposedly fell in love), and her son became the next Lord Stark
- the situations of Serena and Sansa Stark, daughters and only children of the eldest son of Cregan Stark… and after he died, it seems likely they were forcefully married to their half-uncles so that they could steal the inheritance from them, with other inheritance problems following afterwards.
Though, to be fair, there have been other ruling ladies in a few other Northern houses (currently Jonelle Cerwyn and Lyessa Flint at least), and Winterfell women have served as the equivalent of regents at some points. Ned intended Catelyn to rule Winterfell while he was in King’s Landing, that she would train Robb to rule and make him part of her councils (but unfortunately Bran’s accident kept her from doing so). And apparently there’s a story regarding “the She-Wolves of Winterfell”, a group of fierce Stark ladies (wives, widows, mothers, and grandmothers), who may have ruled Winterfell during a time when Lord Beron Stark was dying of wounds taken while fighting the ironborn. (GRRM intended for this unfinished Dunk & Egg story to be part of the Dangerous Women anthology, but unfortunately he couldn’t finish it in time and they used an excerpt from his Fire & Blood writings instead.)
And there are certainly fierce northern ladies, who aren’t warriors like the Mormonts, but do their best to defend their rights for the dignity of their house and their loyalty to House Stark, such as Alys Karstark and Wylla Manderly. Alys fled to the Wall to prevent an unwanted marriage from her scheming uncles (who were planning on selling out her older brother to the Lannisters and Stannis to the Boltons); and Wylla bravely defended Robb’s memory and the Manderly history of loyalty, despite her supposedly Lannister/Bolton-loyal father and her Frey betrothed. (She didn’t know her father had secret plans to deal with the Freys and Boltons, but had a honest and fierce reaction regardless; also note her older sister Wynafryd, who was told the plans, but had to pretend to go along with everything including pretending to be happy about her own upcoming Frey marriage.) And of course there’s Lyanna Stark, who at 14 defended her father’s bannerman, young Howland Reed, from being assaulted by asshole bigots, and acted in disguise as a mystery knight to further chastise them.
However… when it comes down to it, and specifically regarding the recent generations of House Stark, let me give you these quotes:
Q: How closely does Westeros resemble the real Middle Ages in terms
of social customs and gender roles? For example, would highborn ladies
have been expected to bathe guests and know how to make cheese, etc.?
Sansa’s education and training seemed rather impractical – did the fault
lie with her parents or were all young ladies raised like that?GRRM: Sansa
is more than just a young lady. She’s the daughter, not just of a
noble, but of one of the most powerful nobles in Westeros. The great
houses stand far above the lesser nobles, as the lesser nobles do above
the smallfolk. She would not make cheese, no. But Arya might think it would be fun.“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it.”
–Ned Stark, AGOT, Arya II[Bran’s weirwood vision of the past, of Lyanna and Benjen:]
Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as
they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of
the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a
rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was
Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long.
And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him.
She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out
from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout.
“You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside.
“It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?” –ADWD, Bran III“[I]t is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too.” –Ned Stark, AGOT, Catelyn II
“[Bran] was going to be a knight,” Arya was saying now. “A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?”
“No,” Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. “Yet someday he may
be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king’s council. He might
raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the
Sunset Sea, or enter your mother’s Faith and become the High Septon.”
But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness
too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.
Arya cocked her head to one side. “Can I be a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?”
“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”–AGOT, Eddard V
It’s not Catelyn with the restrictive views of gender roles. It’s the men of House Stark. I hope that helps!
#I don’t know if it’s a show thing or what (since ive never seen the show) #but this idea that Catelyn’s ‘southron ideas’ have corrupted the Starlings #and that Ned and the North are all WE WANT WARRIOR WOMEN! #is SUCH bullshit #and it’s EVERYWHERE #i love Ned Stark to death #and he loves and respects the hell out of his wife #and adores his daughters #but he ain’t lookin’ to smash the patriarchy folks! #or to dismantle any of the traditional feudal tenets of Westerosi society #he’s a wonderful man but he believes in those tenets #sorry
(tags via @dknc3)
#also re: ned he sure as fuck didn’t listen to his own sister when she told him she didn’t want to marry robert and why #instead of believing her and lobbying for her he took his friend’s side #he told her essentially that her feelings were invalid #then later told arya – who’s compared to her all the time – that her rebellious streak was just a phase #that she’d end up like every other highborn maiden and marry and have kids and that’s it #just because ned treats his wife fairly doesn’t mean he’s Progressive
(tags via @samwpmarleau)
#I adore House Stark #but there’s been some weird rewriting of them lately as The Wokest House #and they’re just…not #the patriarchy is alive and well in Westeros #the closest we get to a progressive house is the Martells #(also people just want to blame Cat for everything bad lbr) (tags via @thefairfleming)
Tag: meta
I was reading through your post about how thematically important food is in ASOIAF bc it celebrates life and the first thing i remembered was how after Cersci had sex with Taena (im not sure if it was rape?) She thought of Robert and how she licked his sticky princes off her fingers. It feels like the darker version of the theme
Potentially triggering / disturbing discussion under the cut.
I’m asking because you’re the certified expert on Elia: is there a precise estimate on who died first between her and Aerys in the Sack and by how much time? Could/would Jaime have protected her if he knew she was in danger once Aerys was taken out?
Well, let’s see. The Sack of King’s Landing occurred before Ned’s army arrived; it was performed, of course, by Tywin Lannister’s men. During the Sack, Aerys had sent Rossart to set off the wildfire caches in the city; Jaime realized this, and killed Rossart before he could leave the Red Keep. He returned to the throne room, told Aerys what he had done, and while Aerys was trying to run away from him, Jaime killed him. This coincided with some of Tywin’s knights entering the throne room to witness Aerys’s death. Jaime told these knights to spread the news the king was dead; they asked who would be declared king in his place, and Jaime considered two names: Viserys Targaryen and Aegon Targaryen. He said they could declare whoever they liked, then sat down in the Iron Throne. He remained there until Ned arrived.
Now with that structure in place, we have to consider the Elia and the children were in Maegor’s Holdfast, a “castle within the castle”. It is in the middle of the castle and therefore you must cut through the castle to reach it. Assuming that Amory Loch and Gregor Clegane were at the head of group that first entered the Red Keep, one can also assume that they bypassed the throne room, and headed through the castle straight to Maegor’s Holdfast, where they scaled the walls and killed Elia and her children inside. Seeing as Jaime still believed Aegon to be alive by the time he killed Aerys, it is most likely that they died around the same time as Aerys or shortly after. This had to have been done before Ned’s army arrived that same day, while the Lannister forces were still fighting people outside the Red Keep. We are talking about very little time here– I’d argue that Ned’s forces were entering King’s Landing at the same time that the Lannister forces breached the Red Keep. So, maybe like half an hour.
Now, we are provided some hints from Jaime’s POV in regards to Gregor’s position and what he was thinking at the time. There’s is this, where is looking back in hindsight:
“The castle is ours, ser, and the city,” Roland Crakehall told him, which was half true. Targaryen loyalists were still dying on the serpentine steps and in the armory, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, and Ned Stark was leading his northmen through the King’s Gate even then, but Crakehall could not have known that. He had not seemed surprised to find Aerys slain; Jaime had been Lord Tywin’s son long before he had been named to the Kingsguard.
The hindsight is important here, because there is no way that Jaime would have known that Ned was that close, or that Targaryen loyalists were still being killed– so we can also assume he did not know that Gregor and Amory were scaling the walls of Maegor’s Holdfast. But even in this recollection, he makes it clear that he still believed Aegon to be a candidate for the throne:
“Shall I proclaim a new king as well?” Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar’s infant son Aegon, still in Maegor’s with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. “Proclaim who you bloody well like,” he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark.
So even if we did away with the assumption that Jaime didn’t know that Gregor and Amory were breaching Maegor’s Holdfast, it would still seem as if Jaime didn’t know why they were doing so, and didn’t think to inquire. Then, there’s his fever dream:
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”
“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king…
“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.
“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.
“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.
Of course, fever dreams are meant to be taken with a grain of salt, but this does seem to corroborate that Aerys’s murder and Elia’s murder happened very, very close together, and that Jaime had no clue that they the latter was going to be killed.
Now, to address your final question: could Jaime have saved them? In absence of exact times, it’s hard to say whether Jaime could have realistically and logistically saved them. The bottom line is that Jaime didn’t save them because he didn’t know that they needed to be saved. He assumed they would be treated as prisoners of war, not raped and murdered in cold blood. Those murders served a single purpose, after all: to make a statement about Tywin’s loyalty to Robert Baratheon. Jaime did not see that coming.
There is also something to be said about Jaime’s mental state after killing Aerys. He was only 17 years old, he’d been left alone to protect the king, and after months of being told to shut up and let the king do what he wants, just protect the king, Jaime chose his own morals over his oath. He killed the man he was sworn to protect, was caught in the act, and literally had nowhere to hide. Instead, he sat down in the Iron Throne, his bloodied sword across his knees, and waited to see who would claim the throne from under him. Imagine Jaime just sitting in that chair doing nothing for ten minutes, twenty minutes, thirty minutes… then Ned arrives, and Jaime gets up.
Jaime was addled. He was traumatized. He broke bad and didn’t know what to do with himself after. I think Jaime was sitting on that throne, waiting for someone to chastise him for sitting there, or for doing what he had done. He broke a sacred oath, after all. But no one around him calls him out or even cares. Then Mr. Justice himself walked into the room, and that’s when Jaime feels like it’s time for him to get up.
“I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king’s blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister’s men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took off his helm, and he said to me, ‘Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It’s not a very comfortable seat, I’m afraid.’”
This scene says a lot about Jaime. He stares Ned down as he rode the hall in complete silence. His sword was still bloody. Ned waited. Jaime was still wearing his helm. Then, Jaime laughed– because that’s what Jaime does, because he’s emotionally maladjusted and dark humor is how he deals with anything approaching emotional.
So, could Jaime have saved Elia and the children? No. I really don’t think he could have, for reasons beyond time, and for reasons firmly planted in the idea that Jaime simply didn’t know what else to do with himself after he broke an oath that he had equated with his worth as a knight. That Jaime is haunted by his former brothers in the Kingsguard years after the fact is proof enough that Jaime has made no peace with being an oathbreaker. Jaime sat there to turn himself in, so to speak, but no one would arrest him– not even Ned Stark. And if Ned wouldn’t do it, then who would?
Hi, I’ve been reading your Dany and Jon asks and I am really curious why you think the political!jon/ucl theory goes against the themes of the books? Thanks!
“It was the cold,” Gared said with iron certainty. “I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold.”
– Prologue, AGoT
The prologue’s there to frame the conflict of the entire series, and it’s outright stated that the cold is the enemy. (And at the end of the book, Dany proclaims that the fire is hers. Bookends.) The ultimate antagonist in this series is an inhuman, anti-human force against which all humanity should unite.
The idea that people should work together to face threats greater than themselves recurs across the series. Whether it’s Ned telling Arya that she and Sansa will need each other, Catelyn imploring the Baratheon brothers to work together, or Jon and Stannis making common cause at the Wall itself, the idea’s there. The White Walkers are a problem bigger than anyone, and people should work together. The idea that at the business end of the series one of the protagonists will callously manipulate another protagonist into helping sort out the final showdown is just bizarre to me. Especially when the other option is one protagonist convincing another protagonist to lend a hand and a few dragons, nothing but good faith between them. Even the show has started to bear in this direction from time to time.
I think this theory is also pretty OOC for even the show versions of Jon and Dany. The show’s got its issues with showing us one thing and telling us another, but that theory pretty well denies that Dany could ever want to save the world because the world’s worth saving, and ignores Jon’s distress over deceiving Ygritte.
Given the options between “offscreen, Jon decided to give up on a good faith alliance with Daenerys and instead seduce her into offering her assistance,” and “the Jon/Dany romance writing did not come off altogether as convincing as intended,” I know which I find more plausible.
Oh, speaking of the Dead Ladies Club, I know that term is generally reserved for the mothers of the main actors in current ASOIAF (and a few other Robert’s Rebellion-era female characters). But I’d like to honorarily include one more – Dyanna Dayne, mother of Aegon V Targaryen and Master Aemon and others, wife of Maekar Targaryen. Wrong generation, for sure, but Aegon is one of the main characters in the Dunk and Egg stories (and his brothers are important in the stories and very probably his sisters eventually), Aemon is a major character in ASOIAF, and this is all we know about their mother:
“You’re going to Ashford, aren’t you? Take me with you, ser.”
The innkeep had warned him of this. “And what might your mother say to that?”
“My mother?” The boy wrinkled up his face. “My mother’s dead, she wouldn’t say anything.”
He was surprised. Wasn’t the innkeep his mother? Perhaps he was only ’prenticed to her.–The Hedge Knight
And again, we only found out her name in 2014, in the Targaryen family tree in The World of Ice and Fire. Dyanna of House Dayne of Dorne, married Prince Maekar of House Targaryen in ???, had four sons and two daughters, and died ??? some time before 209 AC, many years before Maekar became king in 221 AC. That’s it, we know nothing else.
Was Dyanna close to Queen Mariah Martell, her mother-in-law? What about her sister-in-law, Jena Dondarrion, considering Dondarrions are traditional enemies of Dorne? While she might have been pleased to marry a prince, what did she think about marrying a fourth son? What did she think of the First Blackfyre Rebellion, considering Daemon’s supporters were so against the supposed Dornish influence on the royal court? Did she know about her son Daeron’s dreams and her son Aerion’s madness, what did she think of them? How did she die? What did her sons and daughters think of her? Did they ever think of her, so many years later, when Aegon the Unlikely had become king of Westeros, when Aemon became a maester and then joined the Night’s Watch, when her daughters married and had children of their own? We just don’t know.
I’ve been rereading Dunk and Egg stuff for fic reasons, and this is a post (and issue) I just keep coming back to. This line, and Dyanna in general, is one of GRRM’s most egregious offenses when it comes to erasing women, in my opinion.
It’s even worse than poor Lyarra (“Lady Stark. She died” GOD) as far as I’m concerned, because we don’t ever have Rickard, Brandon, or Lyanna show up in the books, we barely have Benjen, plus Ned’s traumatized from all the other shit. The omission of so much as Lyarra’s name, let alone anything about her, is also horrific, but I mean–
We have Maekar. We talk to him, we see him in action.
We have Aegon, a thousand times over.
We have Baelor, we have Daeron, we have Aerion, we have Aemon, we have Valarr, we have Bloodraven, we have so many characters who would have known Dyanna intimately. Hell, we even have Eustace Osgrey, who is knowledgeable enough about Ulrick Dayne, who would have been related to Dyanna, yet still no mention of her. Dunk and Egg went to Dorne, yet STILL NO MENTION.
And the worst part is, that line is SO UNNECESSARY. What possible purpose does it serve?? Dyanna plays no part in any of the stories. Why was that line included? Why did she have to be killed off? Why did Aegon have to be so appallingly flippant about it? Why do we only have her name? A fact which I am absolutely certain we wouldn’t have at all if GRRM hadn’t had to make one up for the family tree.
The line could have been left out entirely and nothing would have changed. Or it could have been altered in such as way as to–gasp–give Dyanna some personality, like, “My mother used to run off too when she was my age, she’d have a laugh.”
There is no reason for her to have died, let alone died so early, and there is far less of a reason for not a single person to mention her beyond that one line, especially when THK centers around three of her children, her husband, and her brother-in-law. All the headcanons or fanworks in the world (and I have several) can’t ever make up for the fact that all GRRM has given us is her name and an early death.
It’s a goddamn travesty.
every time someone says “““dany was just handed her dragons”” another bunch of my brain cells die
dany was handed three fucking rocks.
she got her dragons through fire and blood and ritual sacrifice and by walking into a blazing funeral pyre which could have burnt her into a crisp, but didn’t because she got the secret that her family’s tried to figure out for decades to no avail but tragedy
#you know who was handed their beasts the starks were handed their direwolves #but it’s not used to devalue their achievements because it is a stupid argument
Hi! Why do you think Cersei felt that she had to hand Falyse Stokeworth on to such a cruel fate? Really what problem would it really cause for the Queen Regent that some sellsword had taken a castle by dishonorable means? Or that some minor scheme had failed? Wouldn’t she just get more eager champions to do what she wanted? What rumors could Falyse spread that really undermine someone in Cersei’s position (i.e. someone who has rumors of incest and murder already going around)?
O, what a tangled web we weave / When first we practise to deceive!
Well, how did a no-name sellsword like Bronn get involved with the Stokeworths in the first place? Because Cersei bribed him not to testify at Tyrion’s trial or fight as his champion, by offering him to a difficult-to-marry youngish noblewoman of limited intelligence and looks, who needed a father for her soon-ending pregnancy. And when Bronn told Tyrion about this plan – noting that the girl’s lady mother was elderly and her only older sibling was married ten years and childless,
Tyrion wondered whether Cersei had any notion of the sort of serpent she’d given Lady Tanda to suckle. And if she does, would she care?
No, I don’t think Cersei had any idea, figuring Bronn to be a simple man operating by simple greed. Nor could she predict how this would eventually backfire upon her.
Nevertheless, when Lollys’s child was born, and Bronn named the baby Tyrion, combined with his hiring of sellswords for his household, Cersei began to believe that Bronn was hiding Tyrion, or just building up a rebel army against her close to King’s Landing. (She later thinks she had never really believed that Tyrion was hiding at Stokeworth, but it’s most likely just her covering herself when someone else pointed out the flaw in her logic.) She convinced Lady Falyse’s husband Balman Birch to take out Bronn, hoping he’d kill him in a “hunting accident” or some such.
Unfortunately, and most likely because Cersei had praised Balman’s skills in jousting when buttering him up for this task, he instead challenged Bronn to single combat with lances, a knight’s weapon… and Bronn killed him like a brutal sellsword. But not before he made Balman confess, that Cersei had put him up to this attack. And then he tossed Falyse out of the castle, while his men called him “Lord Stokeworth”.
Someone hammered at the door.
Again? The urgency of the sound made her shiver. Have another thousand ships descended on us? She slipped into a bedrobe and went to see who it was. “Beg pardon for disturbing you, Your Grace,” the guardsman said, “but Lady Stokeworth is below, begging audience.”
“At this hour?” snapped Cersei. “Has Falyse lost her wits? Tell her I have retired. Tell her that smallfolk on the Shields are being slaughtered. Tell her that I have been awake for half the night. I will see her on the morrow.”
The guard hesitated. “If it please Your Grace, she’s… she’s not in a good way, if you take my meaning.”And so Falyse, dispossessed of husband and castle and possessions, her elderly mother dying of pneumonia brought on by a broken hip, flees back to Cersei with this wild tale… and arrives in the middle of the night, no more than a few hours after Margaery had awakened the court in the middle of the night with word of the ironborn attack on the Reach. And Cersei, suffering from too much wine and too little sleep, her head whirling with triumph that she’s managed to separate Loras from the court and his job protecting his sister, whirling with triggered memories of Robert and his sexual assaults… sees this hysterical woman, blabbing all kinds of details, this stupid woman whose stupid husband couldn’t do the job right, told all her secrets, sparked a fire right on the doorstep of King’s Landing… and she panics. Cersei needs Falyse to be silent, to not tell anyone anything, to be somewhere she can’t talk… oh, who’s good at making women disappear? Qyburn, right. Out of sight, out of mind. Solved! I’m so clever! And back to bed, finally.
What rumors could Falyse spread? That an insolent treacherous sellsword is building up an army only a few days travel from King’s Landing, in lands that provide half the food for the capital… that the queen foolishly placed said treacherous sellsword right there and made him just two short steps away from the lordship of the domain… that the queen decided to kill this new upjumped bannerman for no real reason… that she convinced one of her other bannermen to do this murder, putting the lady of the house in danger if he failed… oh, how did the queen say the murder should be done, again…? “An arrow gone astray, a fall from a horse, an angry boar… there are so many ways a man can die in the woods”… No, Falyse knows too much. She knows too many things she doesn’t even realize she knows, but that other bannermen would understand to be a betrayal of the feudal contract, that would place doubt on the “accidental” nature of King Robert’s death.
If Cersei wants to convince other champions, a bigger army to go to Stokeworth and take out Bronn for good (though they’re going to have to go through Rosby, and the queen fucked things up there too, with Lord Gyles’s ward in residence but the lands forcefully donated to the crown), sure, she can tell them all kinds of things to put herself as the wounded party and urge them on. But she certainly doesn’t need Falyse hanging around and whining about her clothes and messing things up with
factsliesconfused misunderstandings. Heck, Falyse missing, believed killed by Bronn, would just make things easier. Or so Cersei thought at the time, at least…
How do you interpret Catelyn’s line “Ned always said that the man who passes the sentence should swing the blade, though he never took any joy in the duty. But I would, oh, yes.”? It’s such a contrast to Sansa’s view who appears to admire and respect her father for not liking killing. Do you think it’s more Catelyn’s grief talking, foreshadowing Lady Stoneheart, or her implying she viewed Ned as weak or something?
Hi Anon,
It’s the first reason you mention. It’s Catelyn’s grief, and it is foreshadowing Lady Stoneheart. We have Catelyn’s pov on Ned after he killed the Night’s Watch deserter. It’s in her very first pov chapter in AGOT. We see no judgement of Ned there for his feelings about killing, only acceptance.
This was a place of deep silence and brooding shadows, and the gods who lived here had no names.
But she knew she would find her husband here tonight. Whenever he took a man’s life, afterward he would seek the quiet of the godswood.“The man died well, I’ll give him that,” Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. “I was glad for Bran’s sake. You would have been proud of Bran.”
“I am always proud of Bran,” Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it.We also have Catelyn’s views on war and on killing at the end of AGOT which very decidedly do not take any joy in killing.
“My lords,” she said then, “Lord Eddard was your liege, but I shared his bed and bore his children. Do you think I love him any less than you?” Her voice almost broke with her grief, but Catelyn took a long breath and steadied herself. “Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more… but he is gone, and hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone, and Daryn Hornwood, and Lord Karstark’s valiant sons, and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?”
In addition, we have Catelyn’s views on vengeance when she goes to treat with Renly on Robb’s behalf. Again, not taking joy in killing.
“My lady, I swear to you, I will see that the Lannisters answer for your husband’s murder,” the king declared. “When I take King’s Landing, I’ll send you Cersei’s head.”
And will that bring my Ned back to me? she thought. “it will be enough to know that justice has been done, my lord.”It is after Catelyn receives the (false) report of Bran and Rickon’s murders that her views change. It is the grief from the loss of her children that begins to turn her thoughts to vengeance. The quote you refer to is part of Catelyn’s coverasation with Brienne, where she tells Brienne that Bran and Rickon are dead, and thinks about Arya and how she must be dead too. It is a passage that is filled with grief, and desperation about her need for her remaining children to live.
“I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one. But my girls… my girls will…”
“The queen… she has a little girl of her own,” Brienne said awkwardly. “And sons too, of an age with yours. When she hears, perhaps she… she may take pity, and…”
“Send my daughters back unharmed?” Catelyn smiled sadly. “There is a sweet innocence about you, child. I could wish… but no.”She is still Catelyn here. She wants them all dead, yes, but she wants her girls to live and knows that vengeance risks their lives. She still wants that vengeance, for Bran and for Rickon, and she believes Robb will deliver it.
Robb will avenge his brothers. Ice can kill as dead as fire. Ice was Ned’s greatsword. Valyrian steel, marked with the ripples of a thousand foldings, so sharp I feared to touch it. Robb’s blade is dull as a cudgel compared to Ice. It will not be easy for him to get Theon’s head off, I fear. The Starks do not use headsmen. Ned always said that the man who passes the sentence should swing the blade, though he never took any joy in the duty. But I would, oh, yes.”
This is Catelyn’s grief speaking. It is definite foreshadowing of Stoneheart too, and a hint of what we are to expect when Catelyn feels she has lost everything. She wants them all dead. Her living children restrain her from acting out on that desire, but once Sansa is taken from her (wed to Tyrion), then Robb is killed, there’s nothing remaining to stop her, and bringing her back from the dead leaves her consumed by those last feelings of vengeance, just as Beric is tied to his final mission.
I want them all dead.
But I would, oh yes.
nobody is gonna convince me nymeria uniting all the wolves in the riverlands into one single pack under her command isn’t foreshadowing for arya doing the same with the men tbh – the brotherhood, the houses loyal to the starks/tullys and the smallfolk alike. this entire region is a chaotic mess with a destructive zombie in the center of it all but they need to join forces and become organized before the white walkers tear down the wall. arya is the one who’s gonna do it. she has so much history here. shes fought and bled and cried. we’ve already seen her deliver mercy and justice to soldiers all over the riverlands. she saved an innocent baby and protected her friends. she’s been a hostage at the hands of monsters but she’s going to rise to power and save this entire region when she gives her mother mercy. then she’s going to become the new stark leader just like her brother. she’ll even have his crown. but more importantly she’ll have her fathers words: the lone wolf dies but the pack survives. this is what arya’s meant to do.
#and its pretty clearly what the starks are being set up to do across westeros#jon in the north with the wildlings#and the northerners with robbs will#sansa is going to gain influence in the vale#when they all join forces eventually it’ll make them strong enough to fight the walkers (via @gendrie)
#arya’s arc is so much about abuse of privilege #she sees knights and highborns abuse power over and over #she’s going to use her highborn status for good #she is a natural leader #and her chapters are building towards her using all she has learned #from ned syrio yoren and her time in the hobaw and braavos #she named her wolf nymeria #it means something #she’s all about pack #arya would make friends with anybody #and she will and it will be vital for the war (via @madaboutasoiaf)
there’s a reason why ned tells arya and only arya ‘the lone wolf dies but the pack survives’ and this is it,it’s not a stark family motto like the show and fandom like to pretend,it only appears in arya’s chapters and is never said or even referenced anywhere else or by any other character before or after,and that’s because while it’s a powerful saying that looks great slapped on gifsets it’s a narrative imperative for arya specifically,she’s the only one that consistently thinks of ‘pack’ in terms of people – friends and allies – those she’s taken into her protection,and feels personally responsible for leading and providing for and defending even when it’s at a cost to her own person,and finally forming one large pack from all the disparate groups she found and lost over her journey is what her arc’s building to,just like her direwolf and the warrior queen she was named after did before her,arya’s the connecting thread between these factions crooked stitches and all,it’s yet another reason why she won’t remain in the hobaw – they want her isolated and to blindly follow when she’s meant to lead,(notice ‘valar dohaeris’ isn’t far from gregor’s ‘obey. serve. live.’ in harrenhal), (via @insomniarama )
why do you think lyanna was never proposed as a match for jaime lannister? as far as southron ambitions go, a lannister match seems more ambitious than a baratheon one and just from a political standpoint it would make more sense for the lannisters than a martell match (and a lysa tully one since technically lyanna is the eldest daughter). and they’re a similar age so it just makes sense for it to be considered at least imo
I think it all boils down to Rickard’s perception of Tywin Lannister, either not wanting him as a partner or expecting to be rejected outright. Tywin already had a reputation for ruthlessness with his actions towards the Tarbecks and the Reynes, as well as the punishment he wrought upon his father’s mistress after his father died. Coupled with once being Hand to Aerys, refusing to marry Cersei to anyone but Rhaegar (and then refusing to marry her off even after Rhaegar was off the market), perhaps Rickard doubted Tywin’s loyalty to him if swayed to his side and/or feared his ambition. Even with Tywin’s personal grievances against Aerys, Tywin was not one known for friendliness or general trustworthiness.
On the other side, Tywin may not have seen a northern alliance as a useful one, or a war against the Crown as a safe move. The North is far removed from the politics he’s involved in and is removed geographically. Then as we later see during the course of the war, Tywin does not involve himself until literally the last minute, indicating that he was simply waiting it out to see who the clear winner was before making his move.
Then there are Rickard’s own motives to take into account. He was developing a power bloc of nobles who were able and prepared to dethrone Aerys. Tywin, who was once Aerys’s close friend, would not be the safest pick. To approach him with a plan of war against Aerys would have been a risk Rickard was wise not to take. With Tywin once having been Aerys’s friend, he might have leaked such information immediately to earn himself royal favor. Robert was an especially good pick because he had no significant royalist influence, young, able-bodied, a skilled warrior, and the Lord of Storm’s End, having already come into his birthright (whereas Jaime was still merely an heir). His father, who had been a friend of Aerys’s, had died when he was young, he was close friends with Ned, and he looked to Jon Arryn as a foster father. Jon Arryn was receptive to and possibly even an architect of Rickard’s “southron ambitions”, he had both Ned and Robert under his care (while the two were becoming close and fast friends), and his loyalty to his foster sons was genuine.
Under such circumstances, when the choice is between Robert and Jaime, the winner is clear. Lannister gold means nothing if there is no loyalty attached, and I am certain that Rickard knew that Tywin’s loyalty would be hard bought and difficult to keep, whereas Robert could be easily swayed and kept to his side.
In any case, the unlikely match between Jaime and Lyanna would have disappeared into thin air upon Jaime’s induction into the Kingsguard, which would have been an entirely different mess.
lyannas tumblr back up 